Enclosed find both sets of minutes from the GGF10. 

Regards Susanne

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USER PROGRAM DEVELOPMENT TOOLS FOR THE GRID-RG (APME) 
Room 2014B
12th March, 10:30am

The session is chaired by Susanne de Balle and Robert Hood. A turnaround presentation is initiated around the room. 

A review of last UPDT meeting is presented. 

The User Tools Survey is discussed. A presentation and the survey report itself can be find in gridforge website. 
One person in the room suggest that it would have been a good idea to add a question about documentation. 



The Known Problem Survey is now on the web site ready for answering. 
The survey questions different aspects of applications and tools. 
Comments to the form are requested. 
It is commented that the question about Globus seems discriminatory. 
Suggestions on how the form can be advertised are commented. Again, the question regarding documentation is suggested 
again.

Next, the roadmap for next GGF's is presented. There would be no UPDT session in GGF11. For GGF12 a normal meeting is 
suggested, together with a workshop with another group. UPDT has organized workshops with the APPS group. The new 
created SAGA-WG is suggested as a possible group with which co-organize the workshop. The workshop subject could be "
Existing 
Grid-enabled program development tools/tool-protocol efforts". 

Open discussion: 
- Put the user survey presentation in pdf to easy its access
- It is reminded the workshop that will take place the next day, 13th of March, on Applications. 


GGF10 UPDT meeting notes 12 March 2004
-------------------------------------

Introduction

Went over the agenda

Introduction. Went around the room.

Reviewed what we went over at GGF9.
Described the 2 survey deliverables in our Charter

User Survey recap

	how many users are grid enabling
	what does their devel cycle look like
	2 have read doc
	want comments; update doc; send to area leads & editor; would like approval ASAP
	<slide w/ outline of report>
	review of survey questions
	diverse set of respondents (20)
	what platforms are people using
	62% of resp use same system for devel & prod'n
	developers use whatever systems they can get
	broad range of target platforms being used
	45% using hetero systems
	design cycle tools; design from scratch?
		conclusions of design: some respondents confused
		note: design as you program
		Matlab, UML, HTML? are the most common tools
		30% from scratch
		scalability important
		heterogeneity important
		software lic, 
	program devel cycle
		not that many people working on the grid (35%)
		is it too hard to develop for the grid?
		need to work more on tools
		conclusions: common programming tools ?
		relying on mathematical libraries for large scale system execution
	debugging tools
		print stmts most common
		need more grid-enabled tools (like debugging)
		need to make sure print statements work in grid
environment!
	performance tools
		what tools are being used
		std optim techniques being used
		no agreement on tools being used
		50% found their tools adequate
		important to provide tools
	comment: got out of survey what we expected
	comment: where do users get information/documentation
			friends, web, 
		is documentation adequate?
	maybe continue with survey in an automatic mode?
	need to post minutes and (separately) important comments

known problems survey status

Help people who are going to create tools for the Grid
What problems they have encountered, What standardization will help?

Open ended questions:
What problems are respondents run into. Didn't want to prejudice the answers

In the future might want to do a checkbox survey

Want to know if people are using Globus.

What features of the Grid are used by the application?

Would standardization be likely to help? How?

Very open ended survey. We don't want to prejudice the survey

Split into 2:
What problem are they solving for users
How can UPDT help?

Space for...